Name: Right-Sizing Your Program: Strategy, Segmentation, and Policies
Uploaded: 2026-08-25T18:20:55.058Z
Duration: 50 min 4 s
Description: Right-Sizing Your Program: Strategy, Segmentation, and Policies

Transcript for "Right-Sizing Your Program: Strategy, Segmentation, and Policies": Alright. Welcome back. Catherine is on. We have talked with a lot of you about things that are upcoming with her session, so that is still to come. Numbers are going up. We're gonna give everyone just another minute or so, and then we will dive back in. All right. So welcome back. Carol has shown us that plan giving prospects are not limited to one specific age, one giving level or one familiar donor profile. My role in this section is to talk about how to help turn that opportunity into an actual operating plan. We're gonna talk first about what size program makes sense, who to engage, which gifts to support and also what guardrails to put in place. That way you can build activity that your organization can actually sustain. Before we begin just a little bit about me. I am Amy Vavra. I spent ten years fundraising in legal services organizations and public media before joining Blackbaud. That background taught me that organizations can have very different missions, very different staffing models, and also different budgets and risk tolerances. So I've worked with organizations. None of them that I worked with had a planned giving officer, for example. But the size teams I worked with also varied from two people to nine to 10 people. Those organizations can support different planned giving programs. So we'll talk more about that. Outside of work, I'm a reader, love to read, love to travel. I am the mom to two to twin daughters who are 11. And I also have two rescue dogs. And when I'm feeling particularly crazy, we foster rescue puppies as well. So all of that might give you an idea, why I'm drawn to practical plans that work in real life, not just on paper. So Carol helped us identify the opportunity that you have in your database. I'm gonna focus on building a program around that opportunity. Then Katherine will turn to tracking and planning and reporting or sorry. Tracking and reporting on that work. So, you know, we're thinking of these three sections as identify build and track. So here's our path. First we're going to assess the up the scale of the opportunity. Then we're going to choose a program size that matches your reality. Third, we're going to discuss segmenting donors for different kinds of action. Fourth, how to protect the organization with appropriate policies and review processes. And finally, how do we turn all of these choices into a realistic outreach rhythm? So the question throughout this is not what does the largest planned giving shop do? What we want to be asking is what can our organization do well and do consistently? So from the start, right size is not another word for small. It also doesn't mean choosing most complex menu of gifts or conducting one isolated campaign. When we're talking about a sustainable program that sits at the intersection of donor opportunity, staff capacity and budget. That's another one, but sometimes those go together, risk tolerance and your expertise. If one of these dimensions is missing, the program could create activity without creating durable relationships. For example, if you run a large marketing campaign and generate more leads than you can follow-up on, that's a problem. So we want to just make sure as we are working through this, that you're realistic about, what size makes sense for you. Our core question here is really what can we consistently market, respond to, document and steward? So this is an, exercise, because it's a webinar. I will not know if you are actually doing it or not, but I would encourage you to try to write down three approximate numbers. How many people could you responsibly include in planned giving outreach? Second, if you know it, if you have a planned giving history, what's your organization's average realized bequest? Carol talked through some of those standard numbers, so you could see that there. But you may have information from your own organization. Third, how many people are available to respond when a donor raises a hand? So again, Carol walked us through how to estimate the potential, not asking you to redo that calculation. What we're looking for here is the relationship between the opportunity and the capacity. So an organization might have thousands of possible prospects, but if no one owns the responses or if one person owns the responses, but they also own all of, you know, all of development or development and marketing worst case, that opportunity isn't translating into a program. So we wanna see audience to capacity. What are we looking at? This out the gate, this continuum is not a grading scale. So, really, I want to stress that having an established program is not automatically better than a foundational program. An organization that is not yet ready, is one where it's lacking an owner. There's not a response pathway for donor inquiries, no agreement on gifts, acceptable gifts, or a reliable way to record interest. If you find yourself in that category, the priority is really to build that foundational readiness before you launch a broad campaign. So, take a look, you know, at those, a few, some of you may be in that, and again, there's nothing wrong with that, but what we need to do is put those things in place before you can move into the foundational category. Foundational program is focused on creating awareness. The types of gifts that are marketed or brought up in conversations are focused principally on simple legacy gifts. So bequest beneficiary designations. There is an owner to this program. The owner, it's usually not their job, you know, their full job in that sort of a role, but there is someone who is the point person there. And lastly, there is a basic response and a policy structure So, that we know what gifts are accepted and what procedure is followed when somebody is, letting you know that they are interested or that they have intent. A growing program is adding on to this. So we have prioritized segments for outreach. There is recurring multichannel outreach. There's qualification and follow-up processes in place. There's more formal workflows and there's stewardship. Lastly, an established program has clearly allocated staffing. There are personal portfolios that, someone owns, at least one person owns. There's also broader expertise around, gift acceptance types. People on staff are more, ready to answer questions about complex gifts. For example, there are advisor relationships. So, we're looking to see kind of have that relationship with some planned giving with some charitable advisors. There's also gift review processes and formal reporting, which is something Catherine will talk more about. So take a moment when we're looking at this, where where is your organization? And where do you want to go? And that goal should not always be established. For many organizations, the best answer might be to remain foundational and just do it extremely well. The best question kind of now is what is the next reasonable capability to add? Let's see. So given this, what determines your starting point? This is determined less by ambition than answers to some of these more operational questions. How many people can you reach, who answers? So I did see a question, and I'm sorry, I I'll come back to most of them at the end, but I did see one pop up about examples of different response pathways. That kind of ties in here to this who answers, and who can discuss or escalate a proposed gift. Those are questions that go to the response pathways. So if someone, indicates they may be interested in making a planned gift, say you I'm gonna stay simple here. You have information on your website. On your annual fund, you have a checkbox that says, talk to me more about legacy giving or I'm interested in making a legacy gift. Response pathways are what happens after that. So for an organization that is more foundational, the point person is likely to reach out about that, and have a direct conversation. Other examples there, sometimes kind of at that same level, there's a one pager or a sheet on different giving vehicles and ways to get involved, that could go out as well. Different response pathways, you may have a planned giving officer who handles all of the qualification to see if they're a serious donor. There may be a pathway where someone is sent specific information or invited to join for a tour, for example. So there's just lots of different kind of outreach depending on the level of someone's interest. And what you want to take a look at here is who is responding, if a gift is proposed and it is, how is that escalating? So if it's, they're not just ready right away to say, I want to give 10%. I've changed everything. You had great language on the website. I've done it all. Who can handle that escalation? What marketing channels are you already using? And what can you consistently document for planned giving and how do you steward those donors? Lastly, what time and budget are genuinely available? If one of these answers is unclear, that's common. And it's not a failure. It's just something to highlight and it's a capability to build as you move through your program. Okay. Now I'm gonna ask you again. I won't know if you did it or not, but to score your organization in four areas. We talked through this, so I won't spend too much time on it, but the green is ready now, yellow possible with a defined improvement and red is there's a material gap. So first we do want to look at ownership, Who receives and answers an inquiry? Who's responsible for an ongoing relationship? Second is delivery. What can you consistently produce through your website, email, newsletter, or mail program? Third is the expertise. Do you have internal knowledge or do you have finance and legal partners? Do you have outside support? When I worked at our my local, to Charlotte NPR affiliate station, we did not have, you know, the internal knowledge. We didn't have someone who on staff who only was handling planned giving. We had a board member who was a trust and estates attorney who was happy to step in. So this is again, something that could be, it does not have to look like you individually know everything about every type of planned gift, that exists. So there's other places you can look that's included in the expertise. Finally, follow through. Can you answer inquiries thoughtfully? Can you document all of those conversations and the relationship? And can you make sure that the donor is thanked and stewarded? Looking at these, I'd encourage you to look at your lowest score and that might be the most useful result because that should determine the initial size of your program. We don't wanna get out over our skis with a program that's too big to sustain. To that point, Carol gave us this vocabulary, talking here about the scope. You do not need expertise in every complex gift structure to begin a legitimate planned giving program. And I just wanna underscore that because that is a common barrier, either from development team or sometimes from leadership. You don't need that. For many organizations, the core focus is going to be bequest through wills or trusts, beneficiary designations, and the marketing of clear legacy awareness language. You could take a look, you know, we do have qualified charitable distributions. Those are current gifts rather than deferred legacy commitments, but often they sit kind of in the same, place beside plant giving as a kind of non cash broader fundraising strategy. As your capacity and expertise grow, that's when an organization may support gift annuities, charitable remainder trust, appreciated noncash assets, and blended gifts. What I want to emphasize is if we're gonna if you are going to promote these and put them on your website, make sure that you know what will happen when a donor asks about it. So you don't necessarily have to be fully ready on every one of these, but, just some education if you're going to promote these. Alright. We're gonna talk now about segmentation for a little bit. This is not about deciding who deserves a relationship. This is about deciding what kind of treatment your organization can provide at scale. I'm going to recommend three audiences here. One is a broad awareness, a targeted cultivation, and a personal outreach. They're concentric circles as you can tell and, with personal outreach being the smallest. The data will help us choose the treatment and the message, but this should not be a stereotype or an automatic exclusion rule. So you can take a look at your data. We don't want this to be rigid, but when we're looking, we need somewhere to start with segmentation. Every audience can receive a meaningful invitation to planned giving. What changes between them is the level of personalization and the staff attention. Tier one is broad awareness. These are people with meaningful connection to the organization, including donors, members, alumni, volunteers, patients, or others appropriate to your organization. At this level, the goal is not individualized solicitation. The goal here is visibility and permission. We want to make legacy information easy for them to find and to include it occasionally in existing communications And give people a simple way to request information or to tell you they have already included the organization in their estate plans. Tier two is targeted cultivation. We talked some about a few segments before, these donors might be those that have a long giving history. So, Carol mentioned her father, for example. So maybe there aren't large gifts, but we're seeing a very long tenure of giving, frequent giving. So, again, we want to include last donors here, who have been loyal in the past. A sustained affinity. We did talk about volunteers and that was on the other page as well. But if you have very dedicated volunteers who are coming in and working regularly, either in your office or on the program side, that would be a sign of strong affinity or engagement. A prior response. So they indicated previously that they were interested in learning more about planned giving. Didn't move to the point where they let you know that a commitment had been made, but they they raised their hand. They flagged that this is on their radar. Or if you have the, planned giving likelihood indicator that we discussed, a high planned giving indicator would also move someone into this category. The donor might be invited to an educational conversation or an event to discuss, planned giving or estate planning more broadly. And these responses create follow-up actions rather than another name on a mailing list. So we're following up based on response here. Tier three is the personal outreach tier. This can include someone with very strong affinity plus capacity. For example, a board member, that you know has wealth and a significant giving history with you. This could be a more serious prior inquiry, or known estate planning activity. So if somebody has been discussing making that estate plan, if they if they have made, you know, they've let you know that. Do they have an existing relationship with a gift officer, but they're always already getting that personal outreach and they have some planned giving tendencies as well. That blended gift opportunity as well. It fits in here and often even if there is not a assigned planned gift officer, they're already working with someone and can develop that relationship with their major gift officer. Each one of these relationships need an owner. So they can't just live out there in your annual fund portfolio at this point. The next step here is discovery and listening, not jumping in immediately to present a gift vehicle. When a conversation or if, because I will, many of them do not become that technical. So again, I know that is a big barrier sometimes with smaller programs. But if a conversation becomes technical, the donors advisors and the organization's experts can become involved. So personal attention, we just want to concentrate that where the opportunity and the relationship justifies staff time. We know that all of your time is very limited. So that is something that we want to make sure that, those that are in this area are those you are able to support that personal outreach. Alright. Now I'm going to talk about everyone's favorite, the processes, the procedures, and risk management. We're gonna talk about gift acceptance policies. Some of you may already have these in place. What a gift acceptance policy is, it's not just a legal document and it's not just for large institutions. So if you are working at a university or in health care, likely this already exists. But it is a fundraising tool and it's a risk management tool. For you as fundraisers, it helps support consistent responses. It sets clear donor expectations, can support better gift conversations, and defined approval responsibilities. So it helps you get clear on exactly what will happen, when someone reaches out about certain types of gifts. For the organization, it helps manage legal, financial, administrative, and reputational risk. What a strong policy should do is make it easy to say yes responsibly, and it should make it easier or provide an off ramp, to pause when the organization needs more information. An effective policy should answer four groups of questions. First, which gifts can staff routinely accept? These are examples could be cash, publicly traded securities, bequests, beneficiary designations. Most of you probably already accept all of those routinely. Which gifts require additional review? Again, could be real estate, closely held business interests, crypto, tangible property, mineral interests. These can create valuation issues, liability issues, marketability, or administrative questions. So, your organization may already have policies around those, but if not, that's something to keep in mind. What can we accept these? Is it in our as an organization, our best interest, or is it too administratively burdensome, for example? Third, who decides? I found this freeing when I was in frontline fundraising to know kind of who who the decision laid with, and it was not me, which was often nice when we were getting something that required review. We want those policy to distinguish staff authority, senior leadership approval. Is there a gift acceptance committee? Do they need to meet to review any of these? How involved is the board here? Can the gift accept do you have a gift acceptance policy that can or I'm sorry, a gift acceptance committee that can handle all of this or, does the board need to take a look at certain of these certain types of these gifts? Finally, when is professional review required? That can include that again can include legal counsel, tax expertise, an environmental assessment, or an appraisal. A foundational organization will likely keep its routine gift list narrow where a more established program may be able to support complex assets, but only because they have the governance and the expertise to evaluate those. When a proposed gift is unfamiliar, we wanna use three questions. First, mission fit. Does this gift advance the mission and align with your organization's purpose? If you are a conservation organization, an environmental organization, and you're gifted, mineral rights. Is that a gift you wanna accept or does that feel antithetical to your organization's purpose? Again, purely examples. Second is the capacity fit. Can the organization administer, hold, steward, or liquidate and liquidate the asset responsibly? So if you are gifted, appreciated art, Can your organization value that? Can they sell that to liquidate those assets? Wanna make sure that that that the organization has the capacity to handle those gifts. And finally, risk fit. Does the likely value justify the legal, financial, operational, or reputational risk? If any of these answers is unclear, the gift acceptance policy should tell the staff what happens next. So the value of the policy is that the donor will receive a thoughtful process rather than an improvised answer. And you will not have to go back and change the answer. If you've already said something that was, and then goes to leadership and it's incorrect. So let's test this, to put this in chat. Which of these gifts would make your organization most nervous if a donor offered it tomorrow? Real estate, crypto, business ownership interest, a restricted endowment, or art and collectibles. I'm seeing a lot of similar similar answers with crypto. And some of these might, differ by organization. But the point here is not that this gift should automatically or any of these types of gifts should automatically be rejected. The point is that your policy should tell you how to evaluate it, who reviews it, and who decides. So the gift acceptance policies are not about saying no to the donors. They're about how to say yes responsibly and also how to protect your reputation and make sure if you do say yes, that you can accept the gift that you actually are able to accept it. Oh, this is I'm in the chat now. I'll pop. Susan said she's currently reviewing whether to accept a gift of gravesite. So that is very interesting. Maybe what our Q and A, we can weigh in on that. That is, that is interesting. I haven't heard that one before. We are shifting gears, and I know this is what a lot of you all had some questions about in earlier, in the earlier session. Once the audience, the scope, and those guardrails are clear, we can build outreach. So this is an area where AI can help. There is a prompt that I will get to and is also in the documents, there. So that can help with the drafting of a plan, but the quality of the output will depend on your the specificity of your input. So whether or not you are using AI to help the plan, we want to start by getting very specific. Want to know what segments you're addressing, which gifts do you support, what channels are available, what voice your organization uses, what time frame applies. So, do you have capacity to reach out about planned giving three times a year? Do you can you do it six times in eighteen months? We wanna get clear on the longer longer vision there. And what is the budget? Again, I have worked at organizations where, you know, the the task was create a planned giving program and the budget was that there is no budget. So sometimes you have to, you know, insist that if it's a priority, there is a budget, but that can vary wildly and want to build the plan with that in mind. AI can help you organize the plan, but we don't want it to decide the strategy for you. Want to make sure we're not inventing any legal or tax claims or replacing review by people who understand the organization and its donors. So this is something where what we're putting in, is very important. And if you are not using AI for this, this is a great exercise for you as well. So you don't build a whole program that sometimes is just a bit bigger than you are able to sustain. Bringing me to this, a small program can still have a credible and valuable annual rhythm. At the minimum, we want to always keep evergreen information on the website. Include planned giving periodically in an existing newsletter or email, conduct one focus legacy campaign. I know August is quickly wrapping up. Since it was make a well month, there is a lot of great information out there about, some outreach targeting legacy gifts. So if if you're in this boat, you know, certainly take a look. Throughout all of this, we want personal follow-up with donors who do respond. And then how do you acknowledge and steward those relationships? So all of this should be a rhythm. These quarters are just examples. So don't, don't get lost in the weeds on that one. But this is, you know, at a minimum kind of, can you sustain this sort of rhythm? One dramatic campaign, a big wake up, make a will month push, push, with no follow-up is not a program. So we want a smaller pattern repeated consistently to build awareness and confidence. I know earlier there was a question about, what happens if someone doesn't respond these programs is that that's not going to be the only ask they have. And the more, you know, they are conditioned to see that coming from you through a repeated pattern, the more awareness is built and the more likely they are to later, later say yes or, start that conversation. This is an illustration of what a more established program might do. This is not the minimum standard, and this is not a calendar every organization should copy. An established program might rotate themes such as requests, appreciated securities, retirement assets, donor advised funds. So marketing, you know, there may be themes around each of those. It might combine year round awareness with more segmented cultivation and then that personal follow-up. You'll notice that is still a through line, whether it is a simple program or a more established program. We want that personal follow-up. The strategic question here remains the same. Does the organization accept and support the gift that's being promoted? Does your message have an appropriate audience and can staff respond to it? If not, leave the campaign off of the calendar. So if you have seen a great campaign for, appreciated noncash assets, but your organization cannot support that. Don't copy that campaign. Don't borrow from that campaign. Just make sure it's a match for what you are able to actually sustainably execute and follow-up on. And again, because I do see it kind of popping up, you are going to get all of these slides. You're going to get, some you're gonna get the slides. You're gonna get a recording. So if any of these are, you know, some of these are more referenced, you can certainly pull them back up. Before you accept any generated plan, whether it's you you've given the parameters and AI has helped generate it or, you have sat down and generated yourself on a pressure test test it against three different constraints. So time, is this twelve months, eighteen months, or a several year program? Budget, have you included design, website maintenance, printing, mailing, any events, any outside support. And if you don't have budget for all of those things, that's fine. We just need to have a plan that, reflects that. And people, staff resources. This is like this is my, my personal favorite that I like to focus on, as someone who many times got planned giving as a second role when I had another full time role. Who will create the activity and follow-up? A plan that is assuming these resources that you don't have is not an actual strategy. So you want to scale to the output of your real organization right now, not the imagined organization or the future organization. So, we have included and it is in the document. It's a four page prompt to help you kick start a basic medium size or full sized program plan. The value is not in which label the plan has. It's that it asks you to specify the time, the budget, the staffing, the desired gift focus, and the available resources. You can take this and use that generated result as a planning draft. So review it, take out activities that your organization cannot support. Revise it. You tell it your voice and it does not come out sounding like your organization. Revise it to reflect your actual voice and your donor relationships. So again, this is in the documents and you'll be able to take a look at that. And then these are just these are some examples, of what the prompt may generate. So, may generate timelines, budget ranges, materials, action steps. You do not need to read all of these screenshots. But the distinction here from Carol's earlier prompt is important. She was helping you estimate opportunity, and this is helping you turn your chosen scale and resources into a draft plan. So in both of these cases, the output is a starting point, and it requires organizational judgment. Now Catherine has several other plans for you, that we will take a look at there. But, again, this is just getting an idea what, what is what can be generated by that prompt. One additional resource is the free AI for social impact certification program. This offers responsible, practical AI learning for social impact professionals. So did want to flag that if that is something you are interested in continuing with. So, we'll get to questions, but I did want to close with four different ideas. Size strategically, assess donor opportunity and organizational readiness before you decide how large or complex the program should be. Bigger is not always better. Focus intentionally. Segment your donors based on the opportunity, the connection, their organizational goals so that the treatment they're receiving matches the audience. Protect proactively. Clear gift acceptance policies support consistent decisions, and they create confidence for staff leadership and for donors. And start sustainably. Build a program that fits your current capacity and then grow with intention. Consistent outreach, follow-up and documentation are much more valuable than an ambitious plan that the organization cannot maintain. So, we're gonna we've moved from identifying potential to choosing a program we can realistically create, but a program only becomes durable when there is donor interest, intentions, commitments, and the stewardship, and they're all visible. So have some time to take questions, and then Catherine will show us how to track that work. So the future ideas, the future gifts do not disappear inside a inbox, lines in a spreadsheet, or worst of all, sometimes one person's memory. So, let's see. Let's take a look at some questions here. Do Tiffany asked, do you recommend hiring a third party or spending money on software that an employee can use as part of a new planned giving budget? I will say that depends on what the planned giving budget is. It can be very useful from a marketing standpoint. So there are several organizations that do companies that do a good job, marketing your planned giving program. They do not substitute for that personal, personal contact so that they focus more on education and lead generation, which is valuable. But I would say if you do not have a large budget or if you have a smaller program, that you may want to just start, yourself internally and not spend that much of the budget on one of the, companies. I'll I'll let Carol or Catherine weigh in if they have other, if they know of other kind of opportunities where working with a third party is helpful there. It it's certainly that, you know, balance and budget, I think, and where you are in your program. There are great companies that help you run tax scenarios that you present to prospects, and I would definitely not try to do that on my own. I would wanna use some software to do that. There's, some of the same companies and others that help track your, planned giving program in software. If you don't otherwise have some, I'll talk about that next hour. And, again, it's down it's down to budget and what can you do. And, so I think I would start using my budget more with marketing than I would with paying someone else to handle some data if I'm not ready to handle that level of data. And and that maybe answers Joe's question about plan giving software, Crescendo, they have in there. Is it a good dual tool for someone who's at the foundational stage? It kinda ties in with that, you. know, because that's an outside vendor. And I would say at foundational of market. and above, if you have the budget for it, outsourcing? that marketing is a great use of those funds. It does free up the internal time and capacity for following up with those that are interested. Yeah. Jennifer said I haven't heard anyone mention anything about debts related to estate planning. Yeah. I think we did mention it just a little bit, back in one of the slides. For for plant giving, it's really the residual left in the donor advised fund that you may wanna be promoting, like, when when that money is available after the the, the the deaf originators are are are deceased, where is that going? And that is that can be designated, to a to a charity. So I think that's a super plan gift. Certainly. And that is a good segment that you already have in your debt database. You know who your debt donors are. Make sure to reach out to them and know that, you know, they could that, you know, there's the option to leave the debt to you in their estate plan. What did you think about Susan's comment about a gravesite? That is a but I I am intrigued. don't I don't really have an idea have any answer that. on that. That that's gonna go to the board or the gift acceptance committee. It's off. of my plate. I'm I think that's what I would say. not me. Yes. Yeah. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna say yes or no. I'm gonna let someone else say yes or no. But let us. know how it goes, Susan. We're curious. That is why you want that gift acceptance policy and to know who those questions go to. Yeah. There's a great question here from Beth on, the size of the shop. They're actively hiring a plan giving officer, and the original plan was for her to manage this person. But she's seen some research that says that maybe they should report to the president and what is the best practice for managing a plan giving officer. I know where those recommendations come from. I they're not invalid, but I think the president has plenty going on. I don't have a problem with plan giving officer representing the office of the president as they go out. Could be their title, but who they report to should be managing them for, you know, everything else that the gift officers do, for the amount. of time spent in front of donors, the, reaching our goals. And I'm not sure the president is always the right person for that management, but it could be that I'm representing the office of the president because that helps us get in the door with donors a little bit more quickly and, you know, seeing that we're we're talking to a representative of the the, you know, the top level. And. have add that, mixed feelings on that one. yeah, I'll add that the president could also be a good, you know, report to the director of major giving, but the president could be a good partner on some of those visits to talk about estate planning. So sometimes instead of planned giving officer and director of development, it's more compelling and persuasive to bring the president along for those meetings. There's a a question, that was right at the very beginning. What does gift review mean? Gift review is, what was covered in the gift acceptance policies, but what types of gifts. can you accept and who is, deciding? Yes or no to those. Even as much as, you know, what is your policy around that? So if you're gifted, appreciated stock, when does it need to be sold? How are we pricing the valuation? So just having those, and there are some standard best practices. That's a pretty basic example, but, gift review is, can we accept the gift? And if so, how do we do that? And then Susan had a question about examples of response pathways. I think I touched on that when I was going through. I'm historically very bad at reading and talking, but I think I managed to work Yeah. Me too. I thought, yeah, there was a slide on that. Yes. See. And then there's also a question, if birth dates have not been added to organization, that is data that you can. buy. So you can purchase, whether it's through Blackbaud, it's called Agefinder, or elsewhere, you can append that data on to your database. So that, is usually the easiest way around. Otherwise, sometimes there are if you work, at university with class years, you know, sometimes there are other ways that you can approximate that with graduation years as well. And if you don't have it and can't get it, don't let that be a barrier. People of all ages are making estate gifts. So go ahead and just start that messaging. Even if it's not, you know, specifically targeted at the perfect age audience. Michael has added to our conversation here. I know Michael well. Hello. Great. He said that he's looking to add a plan giving officer as well. And while they will report to the development lead, the CEO will be involved in some meetings and visits, and I think that's really aligned with what with what we were saying. I think that's extremely appropriate. People wanna talk to the leader, particularly when they're leaving a large gift or part of their hard earned accumulation of of property. They want to know that they're being heard from the leadership, and I think that's absolutely right. I think management of that position is to to staying on track and, meeting their KPIs and all sorts of things should remain with, the professional that handles that. Great. Well, Alright. Do we see any more I think we touched on everyone. he's glad? he So take a class with the legendary Catherine alright. Swig. Sorry. And the legend, legendary Carol and Amy as well. wrap up, but then come back because the legendary Catherine Swank will be, next, and you will learn much more from her. Alright. We will see you soon. Alright. We'll see you. back soon.